OSI’s Blue Hill Deal: 3,100 Acres of Forest and Stream Protected

Transcription by Jerome Kazlauskas

[00:00:00] Charlie Burgess: It's hard to imagine this place with 40, 50, or 200 homes scattered all over it standing by this pristine trout stream with soft rain falling and everything green and lush. It would've drastically, drastically changed this place.

[00:00:21] Brett Barry: That's Charlie Burgess, a stewardship manager for the Open Space Institute, which earlier this year invested $6.2 million to protect 3,100 acres of contiguous forestland in the Southwest Catskills. The Blue Hill property was privately held for decades and recently slated for residential and commercial development. OSI intends to transfer the land to New York State as an addition to the adjacent Willowemoc Wild Forest. In doing so, this would be the largest addition to the Catskill Forest Preserve in nearly [00:01:00] 25 years. Charlie Burgess and Tom Gravel OSI's Northeast Project Manager met up with Kaatscast at the Blue Hill property in Sullivan County, where they gave me a lay of the land and described the Open Space Institute's 50-year mission of protecting land in New York and beyond. I'm Brett Barry, and this is Kaatscast: The Catskills Podcast.

[00:01:29] Campbell Brown: Kaatscast is sponsored by The Mountain Eagle, covering Delaware, Greene, and Schoharie counties, including brands for local regions like The Windham Weekly, Schoharie News, and The Catskills Chronicle. For more information, call (518) 763-6854 or email mountaineaglenews@gmail.com. This episode is supported by Hanford Mills Museum. Explore the power of the past as you watch the waterwheel bring a working sawmill to life! Bring a picnic to enjoy by the millpond. For more information about [00:02:00]scheduling a tour or about their 2025 events, visit hanfordmills.org.

[00:02:06] Charlie Burgess: My name is Charlie Burgess. I am the stewardship manager for the Open Space Institute. I manage land from the Catskills to the Adirondacks.

[00:02:18] Tom Gravel: I am Tom Gravel. I'm a senior project manager, and I work on land conservation projects in the Hudson Valley, in the Catskills, and actually also a little bit in the New Jersey Highlands. Yeah, so it's always nice when I can get out of the office and get out to properties like these and stretch my legs.

[00:02:43] Brett Barry: And if you can tell me, "What is OSI?"

[00:02:48] Tom Gravel: Open Space Institute is a land conservation organization that protects land up and down the East Coast, and we [00:03:00] protect land to provide new opportunities for public recreation. We protect land that safeguards water quality and clean air. We protect land that provides natural defenses against extreme weather and climate change, protect land that mitigates against flooding, and protecting forests that capture carbon, and then another benefit of the land that we protect is that it provides critical habitat for plants and animals, and although our reach has kind of expanded since we were founded in 1974, we still work a lot in New York, in particular, the Hudson Highlands, the Shawangunks, the Capital Region, and the Adirondacks, and then right here in the Catskills.

[00:03:53] Brett Barry: So this is—we've just walked in a little bit, but this is a beautiful piece of property. How did you—well, I guess, where are [00:04:00] we? Tell us a little bit about this parcel.

[00:04:02] Tom Gravel: Sure, so we are in the Town of Neversink in Sullivan County. We're basically in the southwest corner of the Catskill Park, and before OSI acquired this property, it was pretty much one of the last remaining privately owned large pieces of property left in the Catskill Park, and we tried over the years to see if we could interest the past owner in a conservation sale, and they always politely declined, and then in the spring of 2021 there were plans that were unveiled for a pretty large-scale development. It was essentially to build a resort that had two hotels. It was also going to be single-family and multifamily uses along with retail and commercial, [00:05:00] and the owner/developer needed a zoning change in order for that to go through, and after numerous town board meetings, presentations by the developer, and lots of public comment, the town board ultimately decided to not amend their town master plan. That still meant that the previous owner could develop it as of right in terms of residential structures, but ultimately they decided they would rather just entertain a sale, and so we were able to, fortunately, negotiate an agreement, and back in the late winter/early spring of 2024, we went under agreement for—in order to purchase the property.

[00:05:43] Brett Barry: This is 3,100 acres, single owner before you purchased it?

[00:05:49] Tom Gravel: It was, so it's my understanding that a gentleman by the name of Moshe Mayer, who was a Romanian-Israeli architect and [00:06:00] developer, basically pieced the property together in order to get to that 3,100-acre number in the 1960s, and it sounded like his idea was to build a ski resort here, and they went as far as, yeah, creating a number of ski trails that we just drove by, but ultimately I heard that the development didn't go through because at the time Neversink was a dry town, and I guess the thought was that without beer a ski resort wouldn't be successful, maybe...

[00:06:33] Brett Barry: A 1970 edition of The New York Times confirms that 35 years after Neversink voters outlawed the sale of alcohol, several wet options were up for another referendum vote. Moshe Mayer's Marcent Development Company prepared a letter to the town stating, "It is an established fact the world over that such a development cannot reach its potential [00:07:00] unless alcoholic beverages are available to those who desire them with their meals or during after ski relaxation." Other residents, like Marjorie DuBois of the Grahamsville Methodist Church's Social Concerns Committee, lobbied hard to keep Downsville dry, and in the end the teetotalers took the vote, and Moshe's plans for a ski resort went straight downhill. It would be another 45 years before Downsville finally reversed its longstanding prohibition in a 2015 vote.

[00:07:35] Tom Gravel: The property remained in the family. It was passed down to Mr. Mayer's grandson Jonathan Leitersdorf, and yeah, he was the one who was entertaining the proposal to develop the property more recently.

[00:07:50] Charlie Burgess: It's hard to imagine this place with, you know, 40, 50, or 200 homes scattered all over it standing [00:08:00] by this pristine trout stream with, you know, the soft rain falling and everything green and lush. It would've drastically, drastically changed this place.

[00:08:14] Tom Gravel: Yeah, I think one of the things that's really unique about the property is that it's got this ridgeline going through the heart of it consisting of about seven peaks anywhere in elevation from 2,400 to 2,700 acres, and all the rainwater that hits that ridge. It flows south to the Neversink River, which then flows into the Neversink Reservoir, providing drinking water downstate but also improving water quality for the communities around here, and then all of the runoff that flows to the north flows right into the Fir Brook right here, which then flows into the Willowemoc, so one of the huge benefits of protecting this property is from a water quality standpoint.

[00:08:58] Charlie Burgess: As I've been getting to know the property, [00:09:00] one of the things that strikes me the most about it every time I'm here is just the water is just gushing up out of the ground here. There's so much water. There's probably 20 springs or something like that, and some of them the locals have been relying on for generations for their drinking water.

[00:09:19] Brett Barry: The plan at this point is to transfer the property to the state, the DEC—is that correct?

[00:09:26] Tom Gravel: That's right, yeah, we're going to likely hold onto it for the next couple of years and work with the New York State DEC to eventually convey it to the state, so yeah, Charlie and his team were kind of working together to come up with a sort of an interim management plan during OSI's ownership, but once it is transferred to the state, it'll likely be incorporated into the adjacent Willowemoc Wild Forest, which is a [00:10:00]14,800-acre unit of the Catskill Forest Preserve, and the Willowemoc Wild Forest currently allows for like a whole host of different uses, like recreational uses, so it runs the gamut from hiking to fishing, hunting, snowmobiling out here, backcountry camping—yeah, so I think when the Blue Hill property is incorporated into the Willowemoc, it's likely to see similar uses providing a whole host of different recreational opportunities out here.

[00:10:35] Brett Barry: So your deal's gone through—it's yours now.

[00:10:38] Tom Gravel: It is. We closed on February 24th, so we've owned it since then, and yeah, we're kind of getting our arms around how OSI is going to kind of manage it sort of in the interim before we transfer it to New York State.

[00:10:53] Charlie Burgess: Yeah, now that we own it, we've just been getting to know it, getting out on the land, walking [00:11:00] over every trail—there's a huge network of logging trails and deer runs and all of that, you know, all sorts of different paths and that sort of thing throughout, so we're trying to understand, you know, what are the points of interest, what are the different features that people would want to be able to see, want to be able to experience for themselves, and then what's the best way to connect people to those? Currently, the property is closed to the public while we kind of go through that. I mean, we also have to just kind of understand what kind of hazards are out here and what sort of history of trespass on the property, that sort of thing, but you know, we're working really closely with DEC to understand what their plans will be. We're hopeful that we may be able to open portions of the property to the public during our ownership period, but one way or another within, you know, within a few years, it will go to DEC, and then the public will be able to see what you're seeing right now.

[00:11:57] Brett Barry: I guess if the state wanted to, they could have [00:12:00] made the offer directly to the previous owner, right? So can you explain a little bit about how OSI works as a kind of intermediary, or what the process is when you buy land, and where does it ultimately go? Is it always this kind of transaction?

[00:12:17] Tom Gravel: Yeah, so we, I mean, we work a lot with the two state agencies, both the Department of Environmental Conservation and with state parks, to kind of understand their priorities, and when we get a better sense that this was maybe going to be available for sale, we were kind of in touch with DEC all along to make sure that if this was a priority we could kind of act quicker. Sometimes it'll—it just takes longer for their acquisition process to play out. We're a private nonprofit. We can act a little bit more nimbly, and we have access to [00:13:00]private capital and also some foundation grants and loans and things. As a private nonprofit, we are able to problem-solve and just act a little quicker and ultimately secure the property so that the state process can play out, and we can eventually sell it to the state.

[00:13:21] Brett Barry: Do you make your money back, or is it a gift? How does that second transaction work? Do you try to get the value that you paid for it?

[00:13:30] Tom Gravel: Yeah, I mean, we do have to keep the lights on. We have to pay salaries. When we do look to sell to, like, the state agencies, will they base their offers to us on appraisals?

[00:13:43] Charlie Burgess: On their own appraisals.

[00:13:44] Tom Gravel: Their own appraisals, and so yeah, we are always taking the risk that their purchase price could come in lower than ours, so we do try to negotiate the best deal we can for OSI. Sometimes we do get some of our costs reimbursed through the state process, costs for [00:14:00]surveys, and like an environmental assessment—those kinds of things—but we do rely a lot on philanthropy from foundations and from individuals, yeah, in order to kind of help keep our mission going.

[00:14:15] Brett Barry: And there's another incentive from the state side, which is this 30x30 initiative. Can you tell me about that?

[00:14:23] Tom Gravel: Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. I probably should have mentioned that. I mean, this property, 3,100 acres about two hours northwest of New York City, doesn't come up too often, and so yeah, I think this—an acquisition of this size—definitely helps to advance the goal of New York's conserving 30% of the state's land and waters by 2030. I think it's estimated that right now New York has about 22% of its land and water is protected, so we still have [00:15:00] quite a ways to go. There's probably about 2.8 million acres left in order to hit that goal, and I mean, it's not just to hit, like, kind of an arbitrary mark. This is kind of critical in terms of helping to achieve our climate goals in the face of extreme weather, and land conservation plays an important role in helping to kind of mitigate the effects of extreme weather and climate change.

[00:15:26] Brett Barry: And this is a substantial purchase in terms of Catskills history. I think I read that this will be the largest acquisition in the past 25 years for the Catskill Park?

[00:15:38] Tom Gravel: Yeah, I think, yeah, we've estimated that we think the last kind of largest parcel was the former Lundy estate, which actually kind of straddles the Catskill Park Blue Line, and that is now part of both the Sundown Wild Forest and the Vernooy Kill State [00:16:00] Forest. At that time it was a 5,400-acre acquisition that both the Open Space Institute and the Trust for Public Land were able to work on together, and yeah, so I think this basically constitutes the largest addition to the Catskill Forest Preserve since that acquisition back about 25 years ago. One thing I'll mention too is we do have a program at OSI called our OSI parks program, so over the years the New York State government has appropriated funding in order to basically improve the infrastructure of the state park system and also trails and just enhance the visitor experience for people who want to get out and enjoy these places, and so OSI established its own sort of parks program where we help to rejuvenate trails and develop new trails. We've helped to [00:17:00]develop new visitor centers, so yeah, it's great that we have all these places, but we want to try to make them more welcoming to folks and more welcoming to all groups, and we're very busy with that program. There's a big need for the—for those kinds of projects, especially within our kind of traditional focus areas.

[00:17:22] Brett Barry: Who are some of your key partners in the Catskills that you work with on these acquisitions and transfers and maintenance and stewardship?

[00:17:30] Tom Gravel: Well, yeah, I mean, the state is a huge partner. New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, but then we also have numerous partners throughout the Catskills. The Woodstock Land Conservancy is one. We've partnered with WLC on a number of projects around Woodstock [around the Ashokan Reservoir], and we depend on groups like those. I mean, we can't be everywhere, and so those groups are sometimes our eyes and ears and [00:18:00] help to kind of guide us and provide those kinds of community connections, which are essential. The Catskill Center—we are in touch with them, coordinating with them. Yeah, lots of kinds of community-driven land trusts that kind of keep us connected on kind of a more local level.

[00:18:17] Brett Barry: Alright, big question, which you've both alluded to throughout this walk: what's the importance of protecting a place like this to be forever wild?

[00:18:27] Tom Gravel: Yeah, I mean, a couple things come up for me when I, like, we've kind of talked about. We're right here on the bank of the Fir Brook, which is a critical tributary to the Willowemoc, which then leads into the Beaver Kill, which then leads into the Delaware River, and millions of people depend on the Delaware River Basin for drinking water [for jobs], and then just south of here, like, like we've mentioned, it's helping the water quality for the Neversink Reservoir, and then it's helping water quality for local communities as well, so I think it's there. Yeah, [00:19:00] there's a huge kind of water quality benefit. Yeah, recreation. I mean, I'm a parent of a 15-year-old and a 12-year-old, and anytime that we can get them out [get them off the screens] is a win, so providing more and more opportunities for people to get out, and the Wild Forest designation is one that does allow more uses, whereas when you get more into the interior of the Catskill Park, you're looking at those wilderness areas, which, for good reason, have some of the recreation options are sort of limited. You want to still maintain that kind of wilderness character, but a wild forest, which is what the Willowemoc is, just a few hundred yards from here, allows for a little bit more intensive uses like backcountry camping, like hunting, like fishing, biking, cross-country skiing in the winter, and snowmobiling, so yeah, I'm a big fan of providing more opportunities for recreation, and then I guess lastly the fact that this is just [00:20:00]a contiguous forested block. It sucks in carbon. It provides invaluable habitat for plants and animals. Those are kind of the things that kind of rise to the forefront in terms of one of the benefits of this property.

[00:20:15] Charlie Burgess: Yeah, I would just add that several years back The Nature Conservancy did a major study on what places are the sort of resilient bastions against climate change where the biodiversity of plants and animals will be sustained through a changing climate, and this is one of those places that stands out: a lot of topographic variation, the calcareous soils of the Catskills, and the calcareous bedrock...

[00:20:43] Brett Barry: Calcareous soils and rocks are rich in calcium carbonate, and they play an active role in climate dynamics. Calcareous rocks absorb and store atmospheric CO₂, and the soils buffer pH levels, helping to stabilize organic matter [00:21:00]and improving the land's ability to trap carbon.

[00:21:04] Charlie Burgess: ...and then the fact that it's a continuous forest block means there's a lot of kind of connectivity, so in times of changing climate these are the kinds of places that'll be refuges for plant life and wildlife.

[00:21:20] Brett Barry: And I think you said it earlier. I mean, we're in the southern Catskills, pretty close to one of the biggest cities in the world. It's incredible that places like this still exist.

[00:21:31] Tom Gravel: Yeah, two hours away from eight and a half million people.

[00:21:36] Brett Barry: Did I read what the purchase price was, or am I imagining that?

[00:21:39] Tom Gravel: It was just over 6.2 million?

[00:21:42] Brett Barry: Which seems like a great deal for this much acreage in the Catskills or anywhere. Like, you can't get a house for, you know, less than half a million anymore, and man, this is way more valuable?

[00:21:59] Charlie Burgess: Feels [00:22:00]priceless, right?

[00:22:00] Brett Barry: Yeah.

[00:22:00] Tom Gravel: Yeah, I think this is just going to be a great conservation outcome. We did have to kind of figure out how we were going to pay for it. We do have [about] just over $20 million tied up in land purchases that we're intending to convey to the state agencies, and so we did need to look for ways of obtaining other sources of funding. There is a foundation that's based out west, basically, that provides a reimbursement grant for projects that are at least 3,000 acres in size, but they have to be adjacent to 20,000 acres of publicly protected land, so there aren't that many properties in this area that meet that criteria, but fortunately this one does, and we were able to secure a $4 million reimbursement grant from that foundation, which was great, helping us to get most of the way there. We then also were successful at [00:23:00] securing a $1.75 million grant from the Delaware River Watershed Protection Fund, which is funded by the William Penn Foundation out of Philadelphia. I will say that that fund is administered by the Open Space Institute, a separate department called our capital strategies program, but this was the first time that our land program was able to access a grant and our property because of the fact that it's wholly within the Delaware watershed and has such an impact on that watershed from a water quality standpoint. It did rank really highly, and as a result we were able to secure a $1.75 million grant, and so we were able to use some of our own funding to complete the purchase of just over 6.2 million.

[00:23:44] Brett Barry: Are you? I don't think anything's ever a hundred percent. Are you 99% sure that this will go to New York State?

[00:23:51] Tom Gravel: I mean, we're hopeful. We don't have any kind of, like, rock-solid commitment, but we do have really great relationships with [00:24:00] the folks at New York State DEC, along with when we're working on projects for state parks. We really prize those relationships, and we work with really good people there, and so I think, yeah, like we've mentioned, because this would help to advance the 30x30 goal since it's directly adjacent to the Catskill Forest Preserve, I think there's a really strong chance that the property will eventually go to the state, hopefully within the next two to three years.

[00:24:26] Brett Barry: And worst-case scenario, it still stays forever wild because you're not gonna sell it to a developer?

[00:24:30] Tom Gravel: That's right, yeah.

[00:24:33] Brett Barry: So it's in good hands.

[00:24:34] Tom Gravel: Yeah.

[00:24:36] Charlie Burgess: Here comes the rain.

[00:24:40] Brett Barry: For more information, check out openspaceinstitute.org, and for more about this podcast, including transcripts, newsletter sign-up, Kaatscast merch, and more, head over to kaatscast.com. Transcription by Jerome Kazlauskas. Announcements by Campbell Brown. I'm Brett [00:25:00] Barry. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Until then, follow us on Instagram [@kaatscast].