Snow Surveyors: Community Contributions to Climate Science

[00:00:00] "Snow Report": Kaatscast Winter Storm Update: Heavy snow is falling fast, with drifts already topping a foot in some areas. Visibility is near zero, and conditions will worsen as accumulation continues through the night.

[00:00:15] Brett Barry: The season of snow is bearing down on the Catskills once again, and whether you ski on it, sled on it, or just shovel it, Dr. Marco Tedesco of Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory is asking for your help in measuring it. I'm Brett Barry, and this is Kaatscast: The Catskills Podcast. Snowfall is an economic driver here in the Catskills with winter sports aplenty, but the importance of snowpack doesn't end there. Snow that melts slowly is vital to groundwater resources, and the opposite is true when it melts too fast or when rain hits frozen ground. Climate change is altering snow dynamics in significant ways, and snow itself is a climate regulator, reflecting solar radiation back into space. Tedesco's X-Snow Project is a collaboration with NASA to bolster patchy snow data in our region. On a local level, Tedesco and his team are collaborating with the Catskill Center, which recently hosted a training session for volunteers interested in measuring, photographing, and in some cases, collecting Catskills snow for NASA-funded research at the X-Snow Lab. I met up with Dr. Marco Tedesco, along with Lamont-Doherty Education and Outreach Coordinator Marisa Annunziato and Director of Educational Field Programs Margie Turrin. On a snow-free November day at the Catskills Visitor Center, Margie and Marisa came prepared with blocks of ice and kinetic sand as a proxy for snow and showed participants how to measure and submit data once the real stuff comes along.

[00:02:13] [X-Snow Workshop]: Okay, there you go. Okay, now we've got lots of little pieces. Alright, let's—oh, I feel like Mother Nature—oh my God, it's so cool.

[00:02:21] Brett Barry: Dr. Marco Tedesco is a specialist in snow and ice. He's been studying it for decades.

[00:02:28] Marco Tedesco: Yeah, my name is Marco Tedesco. I'm a research professor at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University. I study the changing of snowpacks and ice sheets and the effects of climate change on the cryosphere, which is the part of the planet that is frozen, and how these impact our economies, our coastlines, and our water resources.

[00:02:52] Brett Barry: What brings you to the Catskills?

[00:02:54] Marco Tedesco: Well, I've been studying snow for the past 25 years, and one of the things that we use for studying snow is satellites, and we use, of course, models. Models are very good because they tell us what happens. We learn as things progress, and the satellites can give us a picture of what's happening, but the two of them need to be, as we say, validated. We need to know how well they're doing, and for this, we need to collect data on the ground, and the Catskills is a very underserved area in terms of data that is collected to understand how well the satellite's pictures are telling us the story and how well the models are doing, and so we are here, and we started the project that we are launching. We've been launched for the past year to increase the observations of the things that we need to study here to improve to understand what's happening to the snow, specifically in the Catskills.

[00:03:54] Brett Barry: What's the name of this project, and where does the funding come from? Who are the organizations involved with it?

[00:04:00] Marco Tedesco: So the name of the project is X-Snow, and the reason is because when, you know, collecting snow data can be very, you know, hard. You know, you have to be in remote places, and, of course, if you're just one person or a few people, you cannot collect more than a few spots, and so the idea of having multiple people collecting snow data for the project, I felt it was almost like having superheroes helping you, and so from "X-Men," I thought about the X-Snow idea, and so everybody becomes a sort of a superhero with the superpower of contributing to the big cause of understanding the snow science while using the superpower of being a simple citizen, which is an incredible power, I think, and so that's where the name comes from. The funding—official funding now—is from NASA. We started actually X-Snow before the pandemic, and I was looking for money, mostly because I look in Greenland, and I study a lot about Greenland, and I wanted to have a place where I could collect the data and work with the community, and I think working with the community about the importance of what happens to the snowpack is crucial, so I started that, and then COVID happened, and then after that, NASA solicited some of the proposals for citizen science, and we proposed this project, and it was selected for funding, and we are starting year two.

[00:05:28] Brett Barry: Is that funding in jeopardy considering everything going on in the government right now, or are you locked in for a certain period of time? Is there some assurance there?

[00:05:37] Marco Tedesco: That funding is not in jeopardy mostly because the person at NASA who was managing the grant was able to provide us with the full amount of money in anticipation of potential changes. I don't think this was done for any political reason besides the idea of putting ourselves in the position to perform the tasks for the project after we started working on it. When it comes to snow, the reason for the changes we're seeing is climate change. You know, whatever is changing in the atmosphere is impacting how much snow you get on the ground and for how long you get it. This impacts the snowpack for water management resources for ski resources. You know, it's a big economic impact. It doesn't have to be simply an environmental reason why people are interested in this. It's an economic reason. Climate change is an economic reason. It's a social reason, and so I think this kind of project where citizens can help contribute to improve how well we can estimate the fate of snowpack in their own areas is something important independently of, you know, where you stand, and I think it's important to understand the science doesn't stand with any political party, but at the same time, we need the support of government. We need funding from a structured opportunity from the government. We do not have any funding this year. Most of the solicitations that were usually out there for us to get money have not been put up there, and we have no idea what's going to happen to the budget because of the continued resolution now, and so we are well now, but the projection is that we are not sure what's going to happen, what we can do, and anything that we can find to continue supporting the project is, of course, welcome, and we have to look somewhere else because there's no guarantee of continuity.

[00:07:39] Brett Barry: So citizen science is a help because at least these are—this is a volunteer core of superheroes, right, who are out there measuring snow. Is snowpack—is that just depth, or are there other considerations, like density, that kind of thing? What does "snowpack" mean?

[00:07:55] Marco Tedesco: That's a great question. I mean, the easiest thing to measure is snow depth. Of course, people relate to the snowpack because, you know, if you see a meter or three feet of snow, you don't go out, but that's your first impression. But in reality, what we really care about a lot is what we call the snow water equivalent, which is basically how much [really] water there is in the snowpack should the snowpack melt, so if you take a scoop and put it into a bottle, how much liquid water you get from that in the bottle, and, of course, that concerns the density. You know, you can have a very dense snowpack in a jar, and it will give you a lot of water, or you can have a very fluffy snowpack, and it will give you a little water, and so what we measure is really the snow water equivalent, which you can do very easily by weighing the snowpack. You know, we can give you a tool, an instrument, and it's a tube that you stick into the snow. You take it off, and they will measure the snow, and we'll give you exactly the number of snow water equivalents that you need, and so if we, you know, from a standpoint of view or simplicity, if you can get snow depth measurements, the more we get, the better it is, but if we really make a high-quality leap in terms of the data that we collect for the purposes that we can use it for, it is having a density in the SWE. It's very important because ultimately you care about knowing how much snow water there is in snowpack in the mountains.

[00:09:15] Brett Barry: SWE stands for snow water equivalent.

[00:09:19] Marco Tedesco: That is important for many reasons and for economic reasons and for ski reasons, and that is the parameter that the satellites are looking to model.

[00:09:28] Brett Barry: So once you get enough data from the citizen science, then you can correlate that with what you're seeing on satellites, and that gives you additional information?

[00:09:38] Marco Tedesco: Yeah, the plan is to scale things up, so imagine a grid where you have, in some points, the citizens collecting the data. Imagine these flashing points, and then imagine that you can also, as we are going to do, fly drones. The drones can give you the depth of the snowpack because they can use different images taken from different directions to see how the elevation changes, and so you imagine that you have these dots where you have points collected [very highly precise], and you trust a lot. Then you have this map of snow depth from the drone. Then you can somehow start to pinpoint the places where the citizens have collected the data to improve what the drone is telling you, and so now you have a better large map of everywhere [thanks to the citizen science], but you're expanding it to a very high resolution, and then you use that information to compare it with the satellites to what they see, and you start basically improving the skills that you have from space to monitor the snow conditions, and in order to do that, you improve also, of course, the capabilities to predict what's going to happen to the snow in terms of water management resources because you have a better estimate of the snow conditions.

[00:10:57] Brett Barry: So is there a point where there is enough citizen science input to be able to use these models more efficiently and accurately, or is it best for a program like this to continue indefinitely?

[00:11:12] Marco Tedesco: So I think there are two applications here. The first one is for the specific purpose of the models and the satellites. Of course, the more we have, the better it is, but then, if we have a good coverage of the region, rather than having a lot of points many times, having many points everywhere—they will help a lot, and in this regard, you can have a couple of seasons. They will be fine, but snow is more than this. You know, snow—we are looking at microplastics. We're looking at how much microplastic is falling into the snow or is deposited after that because when it melts, it goes into your water. How much of the snow stands on the ground is changing the phenology and changes the trees' behavior, and it changes also the way that ticks or some other animals behave, and in this regard, we are starting to coordinate with other groups to study clouds and trees so that people can take, you know, data for snow and can also benefit from the data from other applications, and vice versa, and in this regard, you know, once you build a community, I think it's important. You are always going to find, unfortunately, a problem to be addressed, and once you build a community, I think that's actually the important point where we need to consolidate that because it becomes more of an ecological environmental community aspect in which you use snow as an excuse, but in reality, you're talking about the health of the community. You're talking about the earth and environment both because we respect it from an ethical point of view and also because this is a house of people, and it's important to look at the numbers before taking action, and if we don't do this, we cannot suggest changes that can improve people's lives, and that's actually, I think, in this regard, it can become something so sustained for the schools, a local environmental program. I think it would be great if this could happen.

[00:13:04] Brett Barry: So you're conducting a workshop today with potential citizen science candidates. What types of things are you explaining? What are they being trained to do, and what's the length of the season? What are they collecting? How do they submit the data—all of that?

[00:13:20] Marco Tedesco: Sure, so the idea is to explain the importance of snow for us. You know, why are we here asking for help? And how do we—why do we need—your help in your home? You know, it's, you know, this is also very important, and, of course, then we're going to explain how we do it, you know, from space, the satellites, and why collecting this kind of data is important to despite, you know, the scientific programs are so pervasive and so, so many activities going on. There's still a lot that we need to learn because the more questions we ask, the more information we need. It's exactly the point, right, and so we are going to train them about this basic information. We're going to train them about how to collect the data in the field, and they will be submitting it to a website, and the standard procedures are homogenized with other projects that are looking at different sectors, not only in snow, so that all this is going to be discoverable, and then it's going to be on the website that people are going to be able to check their own submission, and then this is going to go to the NASA activities that we're doing to improve the work on satellites.

[00:14:30] Brett Barry: What do you hope that this will all tell us in the long run? What are you mostly looking for in this data?

[00:14:39] Marco Tedesco: Well, I'm looking in the data. I'm hoping to understand how can we quantify a way for the changes in the snowpack to benefit the local community, first of all, and how quickly this area is going to be receiving less and less snow because we already have very intermittent snow here, and I got some snow, then it goes away, and disappears. I mean, what is really the role from an ecological and economic point of view ... which is completely different from the West Coast, where you have a thick elastic snowpack, and so having mobilizing more and there's no culture for this area, which is absent, different from New Hampshire or other places where you get more permanent snow. It's important because I hope that, you know, some of the people who are engaged there at some point will start their own local activities with people who are here, and then there will be something that is connected to the communities here and the ski areas, and people can have a more educational program about the snow impacts, and maybe school can do analysis on microplastics or contaminants or how fast—what's the economic impact on a community that by losing how many people you lose as in tourism that are coming as Airbnb and they're bringing money to the families here because you don't have any more snowpack, and then, in this way, you can start using this information to think about policies and to engage the climate and environmental changes into everyday life via the politics not being left or right but politics as something that controls people's lives via a regulatory system and supporting system, and I think that's very important. There's no information. We have no idea how contaminated the snowpack is from microplastics and people here. You know, there's very... no sources, and if you don't know it, you can't fight it, so it's very important.

[00:16:44] Brett Barry: Is that something in particular, microplastics, that citizen scientists can test for, or is it something that gets sent back to the lab?

[00:16:51] Marco Tedesco: We send it back to the lab. People can do it with different options. They can also filter it in a syringe, and they can look at the filters at some point. The hardest point for microplastics and citizen science is ... nowadays the measurements necessary for looking at them. They're highly specialized in the lab and very expensive, so there's no one gadget tool that we can provide. They're very expensive microscopes, so this is the other thing that citizen science forces you to think about: solutions to problems are very big. By having simple solutions that can be adapted, you need to weigh the benefits and the pros and the cons of having simple but a lot of measurements, and maybe if you start talking to people, people will have great ideas because citizen scientists are not just the ones who perform the work for you. They're the ones who also tell you a lot of great ideas that you can use, and that's the beauty also of this project.

[00:17:43] Brett Barry: So this has been going on for a little while now. Remind me how long this has been up and running and how many people are already involved.

[00:17:49] Marco Tedesco: We have one year. The first year we started late. The past year we started in December, so we weren't able to capture the winter, so this is our really first winter. We, I think—I don't know the numbers, but we definitely had several opportunities for measuring. We had a lot of data contributed from schools, and we did a lot of training, and we hope that this season is going to be wet. We'll see how much snow falls and how much water or rain. Let's hope that we will get some snow, but at this stage, it's very important that people feel involved and encouraged, and I hope that they see the project as an opportunity to be engaged in the community and teach us what they need, and we can build that together.

[00:18:37] Brett Barry: Do you have a sense from your research already of some of the trends in this area in the Catskills?

[00:18:43] Marco Tedesco: Oh yeah, definitely. In this area, the snow has been lasting for a shorter period, disappearing sooner, and, of course, the snow season is much shorter with very intense snowfall. This is a general trend, and it's due to the increase in the atmospheric temperature that retains more vapor and then releases more snow when the snowfall happens, but, of course, it's warmer, and so you have more rain. The snow you had in the past, we expect this to be, you know, a continuing trend, especially with a lot of snow turning into rain in the next decades, and this is not changing only how much snow is on the ground, it's also changing the property of the snowpack on the ground, right? Everybody knows how the snow looks like after a rain event, and this crust is, you know, a bad thing, which is very different from the crust and the fern that you have in metamorphosis very slowly, and so for—even for hydrological purposes, having these kinds of conditions is very different because the snow will melt much suddenly, and you retain much less water when you lose the snow because the soil is more impermeable. It's still impermeable because it's cold, and so it's a combination [really] of how much snow is falling, how fast it's falling, how much is lasting on the ground when it disappears, and how much of that can be retained, and everything is pointing towards bad news in terms of water management and everything else, and so this is important for us to understand.

[00:20:13] Brett Barry: So more flooding, less groundwater, and essentially, drinking water.

[00:20:20] Marco Tedesco: Well, you have the swelling of rivers. You have more. You know, all the small tributaries become bigger sooner, and so therefore the entire, you know, system becomes choked and saturated, and you start, you know, eroding little things here and there, one event versus the other, and then you change [completely] the landscape of the system from a hydrological point of view, and homes that were safe before [they] become less safe, and then it becomes also the question, you know, if one home is safe and is not safe and the others are, what is the behavior of other residents? Are they expecting something to happen? Are they starting to move out? And I'm going to say this is a strong connection right away, but there are places where these things are already having an impact on the way people decide on real estate. These things are also starting to drive some of the consumer choices, and so understanding properly what to do and how to do it is fundamental for local citizens for protecting their own wealth.

[00:21:19] Brett Barry: And let's just talk a little bit about local partners. So we're conducting this interview right now at the Catskill Visitor Center, which is run by the Catskill Center. Tell me about that partnership.

[00:21:30] Marco Tedesco: Oh, we are very grateful to the Catskill Center. We, you know, this is exactly the kind of thing that I was hoping we could get once we got selected and we had the money to collaborate with people because we don't want to use the approach that we—we're the scientists, we know what's best for you. We come here, give us your expertise, and goodbye. I think this is about community and having, you know, the Catskill Center supporting us. It made us feel welcome, and it connects us better with the community. We have been training people from different age levels and families, and I think there's no greater pleasure for me than when I receive the most obvious questions from the brightest minds, and you can see the sparkle in their eyes at any age when you say, "Oh, ha," and so this is exactly what I think building knowledge and culture is, and this is how we build community, and so having a place like the Catskill Center supporting us, besides, of course, the great people that we are working with, and then, to be honest, working with citizen science is a blessing because you work with so many different great people. You realize you call them citizen science because that's a title that's been given, but in reality, I will call it—this is collaborative science because everybody is smart in their own way, and we are just paid to run the numbers, but that's the beauty of this, and so having the support of the center, it has made a huge difference in the way also we are perceived from the community.

[00:23:07] Brett Barry: For people who are not at this event and who may be listening to this right now, can anyone get involved, and how does that happen?

[00:23:14] Marco Tedesco: Definitely xsnow.us on the web, or just look for us, X-Snow, or you can reach out to CRYOCITY [cryosphere in New York City], cryocity@gmail.com, and we will follow up with you even if you're not in the Catskills. We look in the Adirondacks if you know of other projects, if you want to adopt a site, if you are creative, if you have an idea, and if you want to say if we can come up with some—no way to make it work, just reach out because that's what we're looking for.

[00:23:50] Brett Barry: Dr. Marco Tedesco, thank you very much.

[00:23:52] Marco Tedesco: Thank you.

[00:23:55] Brett Barry: If you want to get involved, head over to xsnow.us to learn about snowpack, SWE, albedo, and microplastic sampling, or keep it super simple with tier 1 measurements that require nothing more than a tape measure. The lab invites participation at any level, so grab a ruler, and think snow. Kaatscast is a biweekly production of Silver Hollow Audio with shows now airing on WJFF Radio Catskill. There's a special tab at kaatscast.com dedicated to that programming. This week, hear my interview with Lauren Yanks of the Blue Butterfly Foundation, a local organization dedicated to breaking the cycle of poverty for children living in Nepal. Tune in to hear two of those voices, Nepali students Sanjay and Kamlesh, making a name for themselves at SUNY New Paltz. That, plus a full and searchable episode archive at kaatscast.com. Follow us on Instagram [@kaatscast], and please rate and review wherever you hear us. Transcripts by Jerome Kazlauskas. Announcements by Campbell Brown. Speaking of which, Campbell?

[00:25:11] Campbell Brown: This episode is brought to you by Briars & Brambles Books, the go-to independent book and gift store in the Catskills, located in Windham, New York, right next to the pharmacy, just steps away from the Windham Path. Open daily! For more information, visit briarsandbramblesbooks.com or call (518) 750-8599. Kaatscast is sponsored by The Mountain Eagle, covering Delaware, Greene, and Schoharie counties, including brands for local regions like The Windham Weekly, Schoharie News, and Catskills Chronicle. For more information, call (518) 763-6854 or email mountaineaglenews@gmail.com. Join us as a monthly member listener or make a one-time contribution at kaatscast.com/support.

[00:25:56] Brett Barry: I'm Brett Barry, thanks for listening.